So, let's talk about this here, since I made a flippant comment elsewhere

[ericcoleman]

This started with a flippant comment on philady's LJ, but it seems to have escalated, so I feel I should discuss it.

As some of you know, I do not attend Convergence



philady posted a poll here that said

Are you getting stoked for CONvergence?
Yes.
HELL YES!
I'm not going. I'm lame.

Me being me, I said

"I'm not going, the people who run Convergence are lame"

433 took exception to this, and for good reason.

So, the reason for my problems with Convergence go back several years. When I was trying to do the 12 cons in 12 months I contacted them to see about playing.

I have one rule when it comes to cons, if I contact a con about playing, it is my responsibility to pay for my badge. If they comp me, that's a good thing, but that is up to them.

If they contact me, they are contacting me as a pro. I don't make much of my living playing music, but I certainly do at least a little. Unless you are a tiny tiny con, you comp the pros. Period.

The next year I was contacted, please come play at the con. Cool. I had a good time the year before. Oh, if you want to do anything else, you have to buy a badge.

I said that I can't do that, you're asking me to drive there and play a show for no recompense except hopefully selling some CDs, I can't. I was nice about it, I do try to treat any venue I play with a good degree of professionalism, then the guy got all defensive and weird and went off on a rant about how it is not "pay to play" since I would get into my own show free.

I live 200+ miles away from the Twin Cities. At that point driving there and back cost me around 60 bucks. This guy asked me to play a free show that is costing me money, and tells me that it is not "pay to play". If I was local I suppose that I might have had a different reaction. I'm not.

The way I see this is like ... well ... if I was playing at a club, and they said, "sure, you can be on the stage, but if you want to go anywhere else you have to pay the cover charge".

It's a terrible way to treat people who you invite in to perform for and entertain YOUR guests. We are part of the show. You should show us respect. I think I may have had a different reaction if not for the "it's not pay to play thing". It would have just been left there, and I wouldn't go to Convergence. But the guy was an ass.

I know a little about the history of TC cons, and I know that there was a point where too many people got comped, things got out of control. But there is a point at which it is just silly.

So there is why I made my little flippant comment 433. It wasn't the best way to handle it, but maybe this will do some good. I have talked to other folks involved with Convergence about this, but nothing has come of it. It's a big con. You can do what you want because of that. But it does not serve the con well to treat people badly.

Comments

[mle292.livejournal.com]

433 has been known to make an inappropriate flippant comment from time to time, he can get over it.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

I only do freebies for charities I care about, or telly. Else folk pay me. For things I like I'm prepared to do a reduced fee (right down to expenses in some cases) but....

You're absolutely correct.

[barondave.livejournal.com]

Your link to Convergence is misformed.

Anyway... we've had this conversation before, in various forms. Essentially, you're punishing Convergence for doing follow-up. You came and played one year, then they asked if you wanted to do the same thing again. But by them contacting you, the rules (your rules, not theirs) changed.

I understand your basic objection and don't disagree with your overall take on the fan vs. pro matter, but I think you're magnifying some recruiting enthusiasm and poorly worded remarks.

You could always come to the con and not play. Just sit around filk circles, or actually go to the convention.

[mle292.livejournal.com]

From what he's written, it doesn't look like an issue with "rules" as much as it is an issue with "defensive and weird" with a poorly communicated request.

It's possible that my own experience is coloring how I read this, but, based on my own dealings with people in leadership roles at CONvergence, I am not surprised.

IMHO, it is an issue that needs work on an organizational level, I think that other people may have seen that too.

[ericcoleman]

It should be fixed now.

It's not my rules, it's more or less a rule at every other con I have ever gone to (of more than 200 people). EVERY ... OTHER ... CON. And I have been to a lot of cons.

[born-to-me.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you are right. If you *ask* to go, you pay. If *they ask you* to attend, *they* pay... or have a really good reason not to (I can understand not comping a badge for local folks if your music track is really big, or if the con is little & poor). There might have been extenuating circumstances, but nothing that makes what that guy did okay.

You are right - just the not comping wasn't the issue, it was that the guy acted like an ass. "No" is a complete sentence, all he had to do was say "we don't comp badges for performers, thank you" and be done.

[coburnsteeth.livejournal.com]

We're playing Convergence on Sunday, but I'm not going to the convention. I dont have 65 bucks. I want to attend, because its a fun party and all my friends will be there but the way Convergence treats their musical acts is very odd to me.

The main reason The Nick Atoms were created was to play Convergence. we got offered Marscon in 2001 right before Convergence and Marscon treated us so well we never looked back. Convergence 2001 we played the main stage and it was awesome! The next year we weren't invited back.

Now the main stage is only used for DJ dance parties and all the bands and musicians have to play a little room.

Convergence is definately not a music friendly con like Marscon is.

[433.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that, I'd say that Marscon is a more music-focused con. And that's their thing, and they're good at it. I was at Marscon this year, and they had a huge amount of good bads playing on Saturday.

CONvergence has Mainstage bands on Friday night, the DJs play on Saturday. We have not ever repeated a mainstage band to my knowledge, be they the Nick Atoms, Psychopop, or anyone else. This year we are bringing back Savage Aural Hotbed as part of our 10th Anniversary (they played CONvergence mainstage our first year, 1999).

All cons are not alike. If you want a dementia-music-focused convention in the midwest, you can't do better than Marscon.

[ericcoleman]

I would like to point out that Marscon is music friendly towards one specific genre of music.

[woyro.livejournal.com]

i help run an sf con here in Rochester, NY (astronomicon). its a small con (usually under 400 attendees), but we get a lot of really good people who do panels for us (Rob Sawyer, Nancy Kress, etc). if you perform for us, you AT LEAST get free admission and free space in the dealer's room where you can sell your stuff. if you are the music GOH, then you get a room, food money and some travel expenses.

[433.livejournal.com]

We have basically the same policy save the comped membership. If you are performing, you can sell your CDs, etc.

If you are a GOH, we certainly pay for room, travel, and food.

[433.livejournal.com]

We have a policy that pros are indeed comped if they sit a certain number of panels. Performances count as panels. If you had participated in panels about music, you would have been comped.

I'm sorry that it wasn't explained to you, and I'll bring that up with the head of Harmonic CONvergence and the incoming Events Director to make sure that it is explained better in the future. It is indeed bad form to ask someone to come from outside of the state and not explain the policies fully. I wish you had brought this up to someone running the con, so we could have explained it better.

However, I still take issue that you said "the people who run Convergence are lame". You seem to have had an issue with one volunteer out of a 100-person Concom and hundreds of other volunteers, yet you paint us all with the same brush.

Also, I will put forth that there are many musicians and bands who come and play, be it in HarmCON, Connie's Space Lounge, or Mainstage, who register just like everyone else. Some of them travel from great distances as well, further than Iowa.

When we started CONvergence, we wanted to make sure that the issues that happened at other conventions did not happen with us. Therefore, everyone registers save guests and pro panelists who sit a number of panels in their professional field. If a pro panelist is only attending for one or two panels, they receive a temp badge, not a full convention badge.

I'm sorry that we do not see eye-to-eye on this, and that you were not told all your options. We'll try to get better at that.

[mle292.livejournal.com]

I wish you had brought this up to someone running the con, so we could have explained it better.

NO. You don't get to blame someone else.

He communicated with the person who had been designated to communicate the information to him. It was NOT his responsibility to find someone unknown to him to dispute given information.

[ericcoleman]

I volunteered for panels as well. I expect to be put to work when I get let in free. I have been on panels of all sorts, ran sound for concerts, and all sorts of other things.

As I said though, my major problem is that the guy was an ass. That is who represented your con to me.

And I may not have been clear when I said that you took exception for my flippant comment, and for good reason. That was meant as an apology, I just didn't do it very well.

As for folks coming from all over, the last year I was there Luke was the only other person from out of town. The other acts were all local. This may have changed since then.

[pheltzer.livejournal.com]

It's of course an ongoing debate/discussion in fannish circles. Hell I know cons and specific people who are firm believers that even the Concom shouldn't be comped memberships.

I agree that if a con invites you to attend they should comp at least your membership. Of course with that comp implies that they get enough value from you to justify that comp. Whether that's panels, multiple concerts, MCing events, whatever.

I also take no exception to you saying the people who run ConX are lame. It's opinion... you're entitled to it. Just as folks are entitled to be offended by said opinion. Had you said that the folks who run Cap are Lame in the past three years I'd have agreed and told you to help us make it better. But that's just the way I work.

Communication sucks. Email is probably one of the worst communication mediums out there. It's not real time. It doesn't allow for true bi-directional communications. It's very Asynchronous. Which is why when things are getting stupid I pick up the phone. So many issues can be resolved just by actually talking to someone. Oh well

Having been on the Board of Directors, and the Con Com, and having delusions of potentially being ConChair some day... I'll say it... someone will always be hacked off and offended by an action of one of the ConCom members. Anytime you do anything by committee there will be gaps and weak points and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, because doing it all by yourself is insane in it's own special ways.

[ericcoleman]

Had you said that the folks who run Cap are Lame in the past three years I'd have agreed

WAIT .. you're saying that I'M lame ???

How rude ...

[wylderwolf.livejournal.com]

Sorry to hear that things ended up falling out the way that they did. I remember from my own time running the music room at CVG that I was concerned about artists and comps... and it definitely does suck that you got a poor reaction from the second go-around.

Oddly enough, this comment thread has also allowed me to learn somethings (example, the panel piece... information that I never had before).

Still, I'm thankful for the first opportunity, and wish that there had been a better relationship after I stepped aside.

[ericcoleman]

We have a policy that pros are indeed comped if they sit a certain number of panels.

Is that the part you are talking about?

And working with you was a pleasure.

[bammba-m.livejournal.com]

that's great, where's our movie quiz?? *grin*

(i have nothing useful to add to this discussion, this is my way of expressing bordom at work, and my need for the universe to revolve more closely around my desires.)

[ericcoleman]

I spaced it ... sorry ... I was busy yesterday

[archiver-tim.livejournal.com]

It's been a long time since I seen an LJ article explode so fast.

I find it interesting here on LJ that when I run across an item asking people 'are you going to be there', the first 2 out of three say they won't be there. Usually without excuse or apology. I can understand a 'has a blast last year, but I don't have anyone to room with this year, I tried', as it seems to let people know 'wish I was there'. I just wonder why the negatives seem to show up before the positives.

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

--Quoting my old customer service training here--

If you have a great time, you tell maybe 10 people.

If you have a lousy time you tell EVERYONE. And loudly.

People prefer complaining to complementing. It's sadly how the world works.

[wyld-dandelyon.livejournal.com]

I see a couple of different issues here; one is that the concom’s attitudes do, by some mysterious alchemy, have a significant effect on the con. I want to write on that, but it’s not something I can put into words easily. For now, let me just state that I do respect and honor the volunteers who run cons, they put in many hours of hard work and don’t always get their memberships free.

The issue I want to write about right now is a matter of perceptions, or perhaps definitions. Someone can sell one or two stories in anthologies or magazines, for a pittance, and be seen as, and treated as, a professional writer by concoms. Someone can have songs on 10 or more live filk albums, and/or have one or more professional-sounding CDs out, and not get the same recognition, either in terms of respectful behavior or in terms of comping (or refunding) a membership.

Eric is right—going to a convention is a substantial expense, the least of which (and for this I thank the concoms, by the way) is the membership cost. Even when a panelist/performer gets their membership comped/refunded they still have to pay for gas, tolls, a room, and food.

And, for a musician, there are extra considerations—costs for materials (last time I priced autoharp strings a set was $60); additional costs due to lugging more weight; practice time (a musician can’t simply show up with a cup of caffeine and a few opinions); & time at the con for tuning, vocal warm-ups, sound-checks, etc. (this stuff can easily take an hour). Oh—and sleep. Late night partying/filking often gets cut short by 2-4 hours. This is all time that they can’t spend doing any of the other things one goes to a con for.

As someone who’s done both concerts and panels at a con, concerts take up about three times as much time at the con, and 10+ times as much time before the con, than participating on a panel.

Another contrast is that, although scientists and authors have also done other work that leads to them getting asked to speak, they also get other pay for their work. Thousands of hours writing a book has generally translated into real money by the time an author is known to a concom.

In contrast, thousands of hours practicing music does not do anything to pay the bills. And self-publishing a CD generally costs a few thousand of the musician’s dollars, with no guarantee they will sell enough of the things to even make back costs. (Roper jokes about insulating his basement with unsold tapes and CDs.)

I’m not trying to insist concoms must change their policies for musicians performing at their con (I know that it’s tricky to balance what is reasonable with what they can afford while keeping costs down), but I think this conversation is happening, in part, because most concoms don’t have the information needed to understand where Eric is coming from.

[jcw-da-dmg.livejournal.com]

Well put.

SMOFfing

[archiver-tim.livejournal.com]

With all this internet, and electronic documents and easy storage, it all to often seems that whatever is learned in one year is not passed onto those who work the next. Policies, such as those discussed above, should be available and given to (or directed to) anyone new to a concom.

It is amazing how much we go about re-inventing every year.

Re: SMOFfing

[guppiecat]

That is one of the huge reasons that I stopped being involved. With no passing of the lore AND active resistance towards writing down the lore, it rapidly stopped being worth my time fighting against the people the people I was supposed to be working with.

[cjfringe.livejournal.com]

This sounds not too dissimilar from the response I received from Capricon, and why I will likely never attend it in any capacity.

I think I told you the story this weekend, but if I didn't ask me and I'll tell it to you.

[ericcoleman]

ok, tell me

[jannyblue.livejournal.com]

At least you got a response... however flip it my have been.

One thing I learned in life (and conventions) this: If an email doesn't get answered within a week, it likely won't be.

Therefore, calling is far more effective than emailing, because it's harder to ignore someone who's talking in your ear.

Comping is nice. It's definitely a major consideration, especially if you've got two cons on the same weekend.

If a convention's compensation policy adversely affects their convention, they will change it. Or fold.

[prettymuchpeggy.livejournal.com]

I think the people who run Convergence are definitely not lame. I think the person you worked with needed to develop some understanding that pros, semi-pros and working amateurs that come to conventions are not only the writers and scientists. It is anyone who gives their time and expertise to perform, to be on a panel or to be a judge. Each person who contributes should be treated as valuable. Chances are that if you are a guest one year and are treated well that you will come back another year as a paying guest and become free advertisement for the con.

I agree with Eric that if you are invited to a con to perform, to be on a panel, to be a judge or to "add color" as an out of town guest that being comped is not unreasonable. At the very least there should be a paying concert at one end or the other of the convention to help offset the costs. As one of my mentors has said, "That just giving you your propers."

He did say up front that one of his rules was that he expected to be comped if invited. The fact is is that for musicians the weekends are valuable. Inviting a musician to a con is asking the musician to take time off work. To be considered for a record deal a musician must be a paid performer on most weekends of several years. So I can understand completely, Eric's indignation about being chastised into playing "a free show that is costing me money." I am sorry, but yes it is "pay to play" whether it comes out of the con's pocket or not.

That being said I don't write off a con completely for rude behavior that may or may not have been the norm of a particular person or a group a people. I have, however, stopped going to cons that do not treat me as valuable unless I can afford the cost and there are people at them that I wish to play with (musically and not).

Post Script-
Before someone says, "Hey wait, but you haven't been here for years" I should add that there are many cons (in Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan and Manitoba) that I would love to attend again, but the choice for me has come down to "pay down my debt to live as an adult again" or go to cons. Sadly, the former has had to win out. Sigh. As for Convergence I usually have made the choice to go to Baggiecon which (besides being a place where I am valued) is overall also less expensive. I may poke my head into Convergence this year as this year limited vacation time has made a change my regular plans. Whew! end rant

{Darn forgot to check my spelling-ruins a perfectly good exit}

[ericcoleman]

This is the 100th comment ... thank you for playing

[born-to-me.livejournal.com]

101 is better.